A wish and a bug

OpenGD77CPS
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ok1pt
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:38 am

A wish and a bug

Post by ok1pt » Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:57 pm

Hi!
I would like to kindly ask for a small change in the channel window handling. I already asked some time ago, but I can't find my original post now.
OpenGD-77 firmware allows to perfectly create and use "Dual-mode channels", where the channel mode can be quickly switched by Blue+Star. It's a really perfect feature, for multi-mode repeaters as well as for direct operation.
The default channel mode is stored in the codeplug, and it can be modified even by the radio's UI.
The current CPS disallows the user to edit data for the mode, which is not selected as the default one. So, to change, for example, a timeslot for a channel, which is analog by default, you have to change the mode to digital, change the timeslot and then change the mode back to analog. I believe that it would be much better to allow editing of all the channel data independently on the channel mode setting. I think it's a legacy feature from the original CPS, where the channels were not designed for this easy dual-mode operation.
And, whats even worse, there is a bug! When the channel mode is set to analog, CPS forgets the RxGroup and TG settings! You can set them in the radio, they are successfully kept in its codeplug and perfectly usable in the dual-mode operation, but they are even not read from the codeplug (or possibly they are, but they are immediately forgotten) by the CPS, if the channel mode is currently set to analog This really substantially degrades this otherwise absolutely perfect OpenGD-77 feature!
This applies to the R2021.06.10.01 release.
With regards / 73,
Pavel OK1PT

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F1RMB
Posts: 2518
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Location: Grenoble, France

Re: A wish and a bug

Post by F1RMB » Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:16 pm

Hi,
ok1pt wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:57 pm
Hi!
I would like to kindly ask for a small change in the channel window handling. I already asked some time ago, but I can't find my original post now.
OpenGD-77 firmware allows to perfectly create and use "Dual-mode channels", where the channel mode can be quickly switched by Blue+Star. It's a really perfect feature, for multi-mode repeaters as well as for direct operation.
The default channel mode is stored in the codeplug, and it can be modified even by the radio's UI.
The current CPS disallows the user to edit data for the mode, which is not selected as the default one. So, to change, for example, a timeslot for a channel, which is analog by default, you have to change the mode to digital, change the timeslot and then change the mode back to analog. I believe that it would be much better to allow editing of all the channel data independently on the channel mode setting. I think it's a legacy feature from the original CPS, where the channels were not designed for this easy dual-mode operation.
And, whats even worse, there is a bug! When the channel mode is set to analog, CPS forgets the RxGroup and TG settings! You can set them in the radio, they are successfully kept in its codeplug and perfectly usable in the dual-mode operation, but they are even not read from the codeplug (or possibly they are, but they are immediately forgotten) by the CPS, if the channel mode is currently set to analog This really substantially degrades this otherwise absolutely perfect OpenGD-77 feature!
This applies to the R2021.06.10.01 release.
With regards / 73,
Pavel OK1PT
Enabling unused widgets for the current mode is just a nonsense. Users have to be guided about what is needed and/or relevant, and what is not.
Clearing meaningless settings while validating a channel is not a bug.


Thanks.
---
Daniel

ok1pt
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:38 am

Re: A wish and a bug

Post by ok1pt » Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:06 pm

F1RMB wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:16 pm
Hi,

Enabling unused widgets for the current mode is just a nonsense. Users have to be guided about what is needed and/or relevant, and what is not.
Clearing meaningless settings while validating a channel is not a bug.


Thanks.
---
Daniel
Hi Daniel!
Maybe there is some misunderstanding between us. Please stop here for a moment and think again. I'll try to be even more verbose to explain, what I mean.
The OpenGD-77 firmware allows to switch channels between analog and digital modes. It can be done just by pressing two buttons - the blue one (SK1 ?) and the Star key.
Even your own (and Roger's etc.) firmware in the radio keeps the parameters together in the same record (I believe you really MUST know this :-) ) and remembers them! For analog and digital mode, on the same channel! Depending on the mode you have just set, you'll find the proper set of parameters for this mode. They are properly remembered. And it allows absolutely fluent operation on multi-mode repeaters. Tune the repeater, let's say that it's in the analog mode on your radio now but just now it transmits in the DMR mode, so you hear the DMR hum, just press the Blue+Star and you immediately can hear the comm, on the proper talkgroup, timeslot, CC etc! It's not nonsense!!! It's working! I'm very surprised that you call this a nonsense. Please, remember, that CPS is just the helping tool allowing to program the radio! And if the radio has this really beatiful functionality and it can be programmed by its keyboard and it's working, it should be programmable by the CPS as well.
So, from my point of view it's a bug and it's preventing usage of the very clever part of the radio firmware.
With regards, Pavel.

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F1RMB
Posts: 2518
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Location: Grenoble, France

Re: A wish and a bug

Post by F1RMB » Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:50 pm

Hi,
ok1pt wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:06 pm
F1RMB wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:16 pm
Hi,

Enabling unused widgets for the current mode is just a nonsense. Users have to be guided about what is needed and/or relevant, and what is not.
Clearing meaningless settings while validating a channel is not a bug.


Thanks.
---
Daniel
Hi Daniel!
Maybe there is some misunderstanding between us. Please stop here for a moment and think again. I'll try to be even more verbose to explain, what I mean.
The OpenGD-77 firmware allows to switch channels between analog and digital modes. It can be done just by pressing two buttons - the blue one (SK1 ?) and the Star key.
Even your own (and Roger's etc.) firmware in the radio keeps the parameters together in the same record (I believe you really MUST know this :-) ) and remembers them! For analog and digital mode, on the same channel! Depending on the mode you have just set, you'll find the proper set of parameters for this mode. They are properly remembered. And it allows absolutely fluent operation on multi-mode repeaters. Tune the repeater, let's say that it's in the analog mode on your radio now but just now it transmits in the DMR mode, so you hear the DMR hum, just press the Blue+Star and you immediately can hear the comm, on the proper talkgroup, timeslot, CC etc! It's not nonsense!!! It's working! I'm very surprised that you call this a nonsense. Please, remember, that CPS is just the helping tool allowing to program the radio! And if the radio has this really beatiful functionality and it can be programmed by its keyboard and it's working, it should be programmable by the CPS as well.
So, from my point of view it's a bug and it's preventing usage of the very clever part of the radio firmware.
With regards, Pavel.
Once thing I think you have forgot is SK2+Star is temporary, and there is no point to clear all the channel settings in this case.

You were talking about the CPS, not the FW (and we won't add such clearings in the FW, it's a waste of space/cycles).

About the CPS, it's a matter of UX, and as I wrote, users need guides. For sure, an advanced DMR user won't have any problem changing the right settings for the given radio mode he "might" someday temporary change.

But it's far to be the case for most users. I don't even know a single CPS which have all widgets enabled by default. And this apply to any correctly designed GUI.
When I write a GUI, I always think that the user just don't know how to use it, and have no clue about what he's doing (no offence here).
So yes, it's a nonsense, and it's not going to happen that the CPS will enable every settings per channel (Roger will maybe comment about this).



About the settings "reset" when you toggle (and validate) from DMR to FM, it's by design (e.g what is the point of checking all the non DMR channels when you simply delete a TG list ?).
Also, once you change the active Channel, or close the Channel window, a sanity check is performed, and meaningless settings are set to a known default value, and not left with unexpected/wrong values.
Another thing you forgot, is the case when a user import the codeplug. As you probably know, many things were repurposed. Shall we just leave the CPS displaying crazy things ? Or even crash ? No, no way, it's not acceptable.

The FW is more permissive in this way, you can edit (I mean SK2+GREEN to save it) and change the radio mode without loosing the previous DMR settings, but all settings regarding the other radio mode are simply N/A.

The only settings you can change regardless of the radio mode is the filtering, and for good reasons, as it's global.

Maybe you're not pleased with this, I'm sorry, but we need to satisfy the majority use cases.


Cheers.
---
Daniel

VK3KYY
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: A wish and a bug

Post by VK3KYY » Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:08 am

The firmware is open. If anyone wants to make a bespoke version that implements some features they personally want, or a group of people want etc, they can do that themselves.

I will not be changing the functionality, and by the sounds of it nor will Daniel.

ok1pt
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:38 am

Re: A wish and a bug

Post by ok1pt » Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:59 am

VK3KYY wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:08 am
The firmware is open. If anyone wants to make a bespoke version that implements some features they personally want, or a group of people want etc, they can do that themselves.

I will not be changing the functionality, and by the sounds of it nor will Daniel.
Hi Roger,
of course I understand it. The only problem is, that I'm absolutely unskilled with windows environment, .NET and development tools, I don't use windows regularly and I'm afraid that the CPS cannot be compiled on Linux. So, I'll have to hire a windows programmer to help me :-). It's already a WIP :-). I have no problem compiling radio software, I did it (and now I don't need to do it as the functionality which I was adding is already there and in much better shape than my implementation) but CPS is really too big challenge :-).

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